Protecting Children in the Age of Violent Content w/ Doug Schwalbe

ERIC: It’s kind of interesting, right? Because everyone always thinks the United States is the center of finance distribution, and all of this. But you’re saying that there’s really a lack of funding, but it’s due to the distribution, the windows.

DOUG: I think that, as streaming became the dominant form of really… Well, if you look at F1 coming out this weekend, everything from a $300 million Brad Pitt movie to The Crown to the big TV shows with John Hamm, Harrison Ford, Jennifer Aniston… The big platforms now are streaming platforms. But what that meant was, the traditional distribution pattern of theatrical, DVD, pay TV, free TV, syndication, plus having all those windows replicated in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, every country internationally, as opposed to a one-stop buy from Apple or Netflix, in particular, or Disney Plus. All those other revenue opportunities–in particular, I speak to the independent film model, DVD–all disappeared in the face of a streaming purchase. So, no one knew where the money was going to come from, if it didn’t come wholly from the streaming services.

ERIC: Let me ask you a question, which I heard at a few conferences over the last year from American producers–not in animation. They were lamenting the fact of how, when they do work with the streamers–in particular, Netflix–they didn’t have the ability to hold their rights of the products. So, they didn’t have a library any longer for this income. And then the costs… I mean, their fees were incredibly low.

In one way, I think for the consumer, Netflix has just been terrific. On the other side, the question is, has it been that terrific? Are you able to retain your rights for some of the classics that you’ve done?

DOUG: You know, it’s always a negotiation, basically. On one hand, if a streaming service buys your movie or buys your show, it’s financed and you have a profit margin. So, that’s kind of great. On the other hand, they own it, you don’t. And so, what my strategy has been is to say to highly-valued IP creators, if you go the co-financing, co-production route, you will be able to license your program to either a global end user, us, or user only, and then maintain ownership in the program. And that involves basically, a lot of times, putting in some sweat equity from the creator's part.

If you want someone to pay you $110,000 to write a pilot script, number one, it's not me. And number two, you just sold your pilot script. Congratulations. And you'll make 15,000. If you want to go this route, you’ve got to write the pilot script yourself and some leading producers are either willing to finance that or writers are willing to write. So, that's kind of what it depends on. If you're willing to take some financial risk yourself, then you can own more.

ERIC: Let me ask you something, which I have noticed. Over the last three years, you and I haven't met for a long time. We haven't been together. I don't know how much you know. But I have two young children.

DOUG: I do know that.

ERIC: Apart from the other three that I have who are not young, young adults. But, of course, I watch now some of their programming. I have to tell you, Doug, it ain't Lassie anymore. This is the most violent, horrible shows… I can't even watch it. And I've gone on to Netflix. I have to congratulate Netflix. I usually punch them around. But they do have a good system to try and edit out shows that the children shouldn't watch. Unfortunately, I have to do it individually. So if it's just one show, one series, you can't wipe out the series. You have to go through each one.

But has there been a marked increase in violence? I mean, whether it's jokingly or animated violence, there is always hitting, pounding, jumping… In my opinion, just looking at this, it's way too much. Or have I just become a softy in my old age?

DOUG: No, I think what's happened is that there used to be three tranches of kids’ TV program, which were preschool, six to eleven, and then tween, or 12 to 14. And for various reasons, number one, because on streaming services if you're an eight-year-old boy, and you want to watch the Simpsons, if you want to watch Bob's Burgers, if you want to watch WWE, or Stranger Things…

I mean, Stranger Things has had a much bigger influence, I think, on kids’ TV viewing patterns than perhaps any other demo, because ten-year-olds can watch Stranger Things. And Stranger Things, while it's not violent, it's that darkness has acclimated them to a completely different… I mean, one of the shows that within the SuperProd group we're bringing to the market now that we've produced is Underdog. There's no need to fear underdogs here. It's intentionally old-fashioned. But underdog, which, you know, starred Wally Cox in the original and had that rhyming sort of Batman dog superhero character. Everyone watched it. Little kids and older kids. Now, because it is soft and because it's a canine superhero, that's like a show for five, six year olds. Even though the humor is quite funny and advanced, for grown-ups.

Because a nine-year-old boy, in particular, or a nine-year-old girl is watching a lot of reality TV, which can be the Mormon Housewives of Beverly Hills or whatever. And boys are watching Stranger Things, and sports, and esports. And so, to your point, that kind of protective layer of childhood programming for particularly five and six-year-olds has disappeared because no one's making it because no one's really watching that.

ERIC: We had a week where we were trying to dictate and control what our children are watching. I held off because I really didn’t want to watch this show but eventually I did. And it’s the UK production of Adolescence. It’s on Netflix. Boy. First of all, I think that was one of the most terrific television shows I’ve ever seen in my entire life, bar none. The acting was real, the empathy that we felt as a family was just extraordinary. We forced ourselves to watch it in one night. I don’t think we slept for two nights thereafter, worrying about a solution for children.

And it just brings out the fact that when the child goes in their room and they close the door, today, you don’t know what they’re going to see or what they’re going to watch–what obsession they may take hold. And I’m not saying that we go back to the five programs or five TV stations that start at, you know, 12 o’clock in the afternoon. But boy…

You are the ultimate professional in this arena. And you have constantly done what I would say programs from Casper the Friendly Ghost, Lassie, these sorts of things, which have just been nice. Do you think there’s going to come a point where everyone has to throw up their arms and say, stop this?

DOUG: I mean, I think it’s happening. I think to some degree. Certainly, Australia has banned the use of cell phones in schools for children under 13. I think having that starting to appear in some state legistlations here in the U.S., that’s stage number one. It’s somehow delineating between the appropriate time spent and usage of social media with–it’s not okay to look at your phone in school. And I don’t know whether that’s generational or whether everyone agrees. But I think it’s starting to turn around a little bit.

And I also think, with regards to content on TV, by the time it gets to be for Disney Plus or Apple or Max or Nickelodeon, it’s then in the hands of the kids TV professionals who, many of them have educational backgrounds, actually, and they get into it because they’re educators and they like working with kids. So by the time it gets to the network level, it’s actually okay.

That issue that you’re highlighting is that a seven-year-old can watch Arcane on Netflix. Arcane is an amazing show based on the world-dominating video game that everyone things is so cool. But it’s not appropriate for a seven-year-old. And yet, once you let the toothpaste out of the tube and the seven-year-old or eight-year-old or nine-year-old wants to watch Arcane, that’s every parent’s worst nightmare, which is, you’re trying to use the electronic babysitter and now it’s become a source of contention. I don’t know what you think, as a parent, about that point.

ERIC: I think what I want to look for is a VHS videocassette and that’s it! Books. Walt Disney movies from 1945.

DOUG: Exactly.

ERIC: Here’s the great irony. It’s kind of funny because I don’t want this to turn so dark but I think it’s a very serious discussion. And we have governments around the world that discuss all this stuff. But no one is actually putting a cap on the amount of violence that’s found in a show. There has to be rules and regulations. And I think that streamers need to take on a social responsibility, as the networks in the United States or the government stations did throughout Europe. I mean, you don’t show violent shows at certain hours on the networks or on government stations in Europe.

DOUG: The piece of video that I always refer to, which I think is the Rosetta Stone for kids’ TV, is the Fred Rogers testimony in front of Congress in 1969. They were trying to figure out whether or not they were going to keep public television, basically. And Mr. Rogers totally persuades–in his Mr. Rogers way, non-confrontationally–the Senate subcommittee to endorse those educational aims for kids’ TV. And that set the template that created public TV as we know it, which was a great think in America.

And, as you know, public TV, kids’ TV industry in the United States is obliterated. And I work with them as partners. And we’re trying to raise money now overseas for U.S. public television. The richest country in the world has to go overseas to raise money for its own television and media. It’s not just TV shows. It’s media outreach towards children in this country. We’re outsourcing it because no one will support it in the United States.

ERIC: Sad.

DOUG: It’s pathetic. And it’s so cheap. I mean, the whole budget is $250 million. It goes a long way in kids’ TV and it pays for one F-16.

ERIC: Which they usually drop in the ocean at some point.

ERIC: I don’t want to speak badly about your former employers because they’re good. DreamWorks, HBO, all of these. But it seems that DreamWorks and Illumination dominate the streamers. Netflix. Not leaving a lot of space for independent productions or company like yours. It’s my perception. What do you think about that, Doug? And do you think there’s too much of a stronghold between Netflix and DreamWorks?

DOUG: I think, working with the DreamWorks team, they are amazing. The kind of magical TV shows they can create, I do believe no one else can create. And the same is true at Illumination. I think the issue is when you’re buying shows globally. You go to the shows. They’re both beautifully crafted and also cost about 20 times more than everyone else’s shows. So, what’s going to work in Japan and Belgium and Spain and Brazil? A DreamWorks show or an Illumination show.

A local show, which would be more an acquisition, is going to work very strongly in one or two markets. And also, the issue with the kids’ TV businesses and kids’ movie businesses–every show competes, every movie competes with Dreamworks, and Disney, and Pixar. Because kids don’t say, “I read a really interesting review of this very experimental movie with a new technique by a director who…” They just say, “I want to see How To Train Your Dragon.” Boom. And no parent is going to argue because the whole point is to sit there in a movie theater with some popcorn and relax.

And that’s the conundrum, I think, for the streamers with regard to buying independent movies and TV shows. Globally, they know those big DreamWorks shows or Illumination shows are going to work. Everyone loves them. So, it’s hard to pick, if you’re buying globally. It’s much harder.

ERIC: Right now, you’re raising funding for your own productions or third-party productions?

DOUG: So, my company’s part of a group called the SuperProd group, which is a French-based animation and live action movie and TV company. We’re raising money for movies, for animated movies and for live action, and animated TV shows.  We bought a company is Luxembourg called Melusine, which produced, most recently, Academy Award-nominated films like Wolfwalkers, Song of the Sea, and Suki’s Kingdom. These are beautifully crafted, Luxembourg-drawn animation films.

And we have financing in place with some unbelievable French and Luxembourg’s creative talent. So now, we’re looking to finance or to see the appetite, globally, for these movies. So, it’s some in-house movies that we’re doing through Melusine, through the SuperProd group. And then, also, TV shows, where we have a great partnership with BBC Studios. And we’re working with other main producers to figure out ways to unlock global brands, but in partnership with larger entities, basically.

ERIC: And it seems that over the last ten years, we’ve seen so many “brands” get involved. What’s the worst and what’s the best example of a brand getting involved in your business? The content business. You know, like, Mattel or Lego, whatever it may be, who gets involved in this and they create their own show.

DOUG: Yeah, I mean, it’s always the tricky part–figuring out what makes a great toy versus what makes a great show. And they’re not necessarily the same. I think there’s a group of toy people who make the shows, who understand, “okay, that works as a toy, but what does it have to do as a show that’s different?” So, when it’s executed skillfully–of course, the Barbie movie, the ultimate example of that–it’s brilliant. When executed in a clumsy way, it’s kind of unwatchable.

The desire to say, “We can sell more toys if we make a TV show,” is always a recipe for disaster. That’s called advertising. And that’s where you end up with these terrible shows that nobody watches anyway. Because if the motivation is to sell something, it’s always a disaster.

ERIC: Just because you are involved in something that I think is the most important asset in the world, which is our children, I hand over the responsibility to a man like you or others when they watch a TV show. At the same time, you’re a business person, and it’s not your responsibility to really self-regulate. And then, if the governments, whether it’s the US or the EC, begins to regulate, somebody raises their hand and talks about censorship. So, it’s a real fine line between the two.

We spoke about the streamers. But I think one of the most dangerous, because it’s really uncontrollable, is YouTube. And I’m trying to learn how to remove YouTube from these preset televisions that you buy, and the bit YouTube logo is there. A three-year-old, literally, can go to YouTube faster than I can pick up my cell phone and get the rip-off programs of Transformers, and things like this. And it’s just really bad. My question is, how do you begin to regulate that?

And before you answer that, I’m going to give you another opinion that I have. As you know, being a publisher of magazines for my entire life, we, as publishers in print, took total responsibility for what we wrote. In other words, we could get sued. We had a legal responsibility, and the gatekeeper was being sued. That’s why you hired great editors and researchers, to make sure there’s follow-ups. For some strange reason, the word publisher transferred over to all of these websites or search engines, but they take zero responsibility. Why does a publisher in print have to take the responsibility in order not to get sued but a publisher of audio and visual does not take any responsibility? Who has the regulate that?

DOUG: You’ve kind of laid it all out on the table perfectly. These are the range of issues that, number one, make children’s television so interesting to me because, I think, it’s important. Because, as you say, I mean, these are children. They’re not choosing the ideas we’re putting out there for them. We’re exposing them to a way of thinking. And it is pedagogical, and it is teaching. Whether it’s a lesson you want to learn or teach or not, it’s everything as an example to a four-year-old. And that is why, I think, it’s so interesting and matters to me.

A part of my business, which I enjoy tremendously–it’s a little bit of a twist. I work a lot in the Christian market, in the faith-based evangelical market–because that’s preponderantly what it is–with a brand called VeggieTales. I have worked, over the years, with VeggieTales, and I’ve worked and continue to work with Big Idea, the studio that produces VeggieTales underneath the NBC umbrella.  And that’s coming at all these questions from, at least on the political spectrum, what is often perceived to be the opposite side. But the issues are the same. Who regulates what’s too violent, what’s too suggestive?

It’s a fascinating, important question that we seem, as a culture in the United States, to give absolutely no time to whatsoever, which is not true of other countries. Every other country takes into consideration the exact issues that you’re bringing up. What do we show our children? In the United States, we don’t even have a forum to discuss it. Whereas, if you talk to any other country, they have public broadcasters and regulations on traditional outlets.

YouTube, I agree with you, and I have no answers to that question. I think it’s a totally fascinating question.

ERIC: This is a heavy conversation. Actually, Doug, I want to say this. That you’re not only an incredible producer, co-producer, financier. And I often don’t goggle over my guests but you have really survived and performed well. And you have a moral compass in what you do which makes you successful, respected in the industry. You’re also probably one of the most innovative producers that goes under the radar. I mean, the industry knows you, people respect you, and that’s what you’ve done. I’m glad you’re in this industry and we see what you’re producing, and the concerns. Because I’m sure you carry them into the studio or with your people when you see something.

And I understand the difference, as a business person, as a producer–and you’re a father. The decisions one has to make down the road. But we live in a society today that, if we still don’t believe facts about big things like climate change, how the hell can these people start to worry about children? And that’s the bottom line.

DOUG: I appreciate you bringing this to the surface because, actually, people don’t… They’ll talk about deals, they’ll talk about this, they’ll talk about that. But they’re not hitting this exact issue. And I actually think it’s a fascinating point, about, you can delete an app from your computer but you can’t just delete YouTube from your Smart TV or anything that’s in your home, that’s in your living room. That’s what your kids are going to see as their primary interface. And for some reason, it’s a magnet.

ERIC: Listen, at the end of every show, Doug, I think about it a little bit, as we’re speaking, and I come up with my verdict for the podcast and the conversation. And my verdict on this particular show and speaking with you is, I believe that you can have social responsibility and make money. I believe that there is a space between zero and a billion, that there is something good that one can do. And I think with more men and women professionals who pay attention, they can learn to make great children’s television and still be morally correct in providing a safe place for kids. 

Because my verdict is, today, especially after watching Adolescence this week, there is no safe place for children anymore. My verdict, really simple, is let’s provide at least one series that offers children a safe place, and for parents to be able to turn it on. And not only to have an educational program but have a peaceful show. The irony of all this is that we downloaded Disney Plus and the favourite show of my three-year-old son is actually the old black-and-white Mickey Mouse stuff. He loves it. That’s the irony of it all.

And there you go, Doug. I’d love to have you back on the show and keep us informed on what you’re doing. I would love to have you on the show, and keep us informed on what you’re doing, even if we do a fast five-ten minute show, because I think it’s a topic that we have to continue to discuss and bring about. I mean, we’re going to do a show on piracy, which is massive, which everyone talks about. But again, no one’s talking about or discussing the impact that television programming or film programming or content has on young children today. We have to treat that programming the same way we do piracy. We’ve got to protect the producers and we’ve got to protect the children. That’s what matters most.

DOUG: I couldn’t agree more. It’s really about protecting kids and giving them stuff that nurtures them, doesn’t harm them.